tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post1457842948569018103..comments2024-02-10T07:26:14.917-05:00Comments on Baha'i Faith in Egypt: Egypt's Baha'i Case: THE REAL ISSUES AND FACTSUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-19133998116418020342006-12-19T22:40:00.000-05:002006-12-19T22:40:00.000-05:00Here is a comment written by an Egyptian on Noura ...Here is a comment written by an Egyptian on Noura Younis' blog. It is very telling as to how many Egyptians feel about the recent events:<br /><br /> ربنا يكرمك جميعا..وعموما للاخوه البهائيون<br />لو الحكومه المحترمه لم تعترف بكم…فان آلاف المصريون يشيولكم على الراس<br /><br />والحق اقول انا مش عارف ايه الحكمه من وضع خانه الديانه فى البطاقه غير التمييز والعنصريه..<br /><br />والحمد لله انى لا احمل لا بطاقه ولا بسبور مصرى <br /><br />Translated: <br />"God bless you all...and in regards to the Baha'i brothers, if the respected government does not recognize you...then thousands of Egyptians will carry you on their heads [a sign of respect]. The truth is that I do not see the wisdom in having religion in the ID card except for the purpose of discrimination.... Thank God that I don't carry an ID card or an Egyptian passport. signed, Egyptian immigrant."Bilohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08060802520953738221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-65399574864259356232006-12-19T20:15:00.000-05:002006-12-19T20:15:00.000-05:00The question now is what is next?
The deadline fo...The question now is what is next?<br /><br />The deadline for all to hold the new ID card is nearing (less than two weeks). The Baha'is are not going anywhere else, and they will not leave the country…they are Egyptians, and they will remain so. They will not recant their religion, and they will need to live in their homeland just like any other citizens. They are free to worship whom they wish to worship and no one can ever interfere with that, as guaranteed by the Egyptian constitution and the universal declaration for human rights. <br /><br />Therefore, the government is left with no choice but to grant them Identity cards and allow them to obtain birth certificates for their children as well as all other official documents they are entitled to. These are civil status rights and have nothing to do with religion or the recognition of a religion. President Mubarak must make a decision...this does not belong in court any longer since the supreme court has already dodged the issue and addressed an entirely separate matter which was not being contested.Bilohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08060802520953738221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-85785589396843555822006-12-19T15:51:00.000-05:002006-12-19T15:51:00.000-05:00Afri. A nickname. I am baha'i. My first reaction a...Afri. A nickname. I am baha'i. My first reaction at the decision was disappointment and sorrow for our courageous friends in Egypt. I have had a hot debate with a friend who questionned why a few hundreds of people seek desperately to draw attention on them and challenge what seems to be a national consensus? Is it reasonable to expect the State to put at risk the social peace (already much strained by other issues) in order to meet the demands of a group with true motives not understood, revolutionary if not simply harmful for themselves and the public at large? Apparently, the reasonning behind the court decision is terribly simple and correct: You are not a religion and your claim to be one does not necessarily make it true that you are a religion. Therefore, you are anything else, hence granting you special treatment opens the door to many other claims that our society is not obliged to welcome (say - after you, a gay movement will certainly come on the basis of valid points of generally accepted human rights to claim freedom of exercise!) On another point, commentators of the court decision fingered what they believe to be a self-defeating baha'i principle: the obedience to Government and its laws. They expect Baha'is to abide by all Government rules apparently including those against their religious rights and likes! What I have done here is to wear the other party's shoes to feel how they stand. It is my courteous appeal to them to wear our shoes as well and lucidly and without prejudice, examine our claims with our eyes! As it may not be noticed, Egypt once again made landmark in the Baha'i history. We should be gratefull to all actors, foremost the admirable and tenacious non-baha'i human right activitists and thinkers in Egypt, yet counting the countless sufferings of our sisters and brothers like elsewhere and in other periods. That is another story.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-76580876006578468092006-12-19T14:15:00.000-05:002006-12-19T14:15:00.000-05:00All this is too much sad.
I thought Egypt by its g...All this is too much sad.<br />I thought Egypt by its glorious History could be free of this.<br />Sothing else Qur'an talks also about Sabean Religion and Magos [Zorosatrians]. (I don't if the right word is Magos or something close).<br />Like Jesus said to The Farisians (words like this) "Wouldn'n be Me wich will accuse you to the Father but Moses".<br /><br />From the wittings of the Guardian.<br />“O people of the Qur’án,” Bahá’u’lláh, addressing the combined forces of Sunní and Shí’ih Islám, significantly affirms, “Verily, the Prophet of God, Muhammad, sheddeth tears at the sight of your cruelty. Ye have assuredly followed your evil and corrupt desires, and turned away your face from the light of guidance. Erelong will ye witness the result of your deeds; for the Lord, My God, lieth in wait and is watchful of your behavior… O concourse of Muslim divines! By your deeds the exalted station of the people hath been abased, the standard of Islám hath been reversed, and its mighty throne hath fallen.”João Moutinhohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10867878720707102051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-65369290172718938872006-12-18T17:12:00.000-05:002006-12-18T17:12:00.000-05:00It has struck me that there is a situation which s...It has struck me that there is a situation which some boundary between personal beliefs and the position to influence others has to have some check, and that is in the education of students below the age of 15, say. For example A teacher may believe that dinosaurs were brought onto Noah's ark in all sincerity, but sincerity of belief is only one test for truth.<br /><br />Edo River risingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-25460892076464088282006-12-18T15:13:00.000-05:002006-12-18T15:13:00.000-05:00Barney,
It is critical that focus is maintained. T...Barney,<br />It is critical that focus is maintained. These points will need to be stressed and repeated on blogs and websites over and over again, so that the real issues are not lost among the excitement of the situation. It appears that it has been the court’s—and the responsible governmental agencies'—strategy to divert public opinion away from the substance of this matter in their attempts to inflame the masses about the legitimacy of the Baha'i Faith. In reality, this case is straightforward and quite simple...it is about civil status rights of law-abiding Egyptian citizens who happened to believe in the Baha'i Faith.Bilohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08060802520953738221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-7835064365973099732006-12-18T14:36:00.000-05:002006-12-18T14:36:00.000-05:00Bilo, thank you for such a clear and helpful summa...Bilo, thank you for such a clear and helpful summary of what's at stake for the Baha'is in Egypt. It can be difficult for people in the West to see why this such a dangerous situation for the Baha'is unless the context and implications are set out like this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-39982280747863177162006-12-18T11:02:00.000-05:002006-12-18T11:02:00.000-05:00Claudine,
You raise very important issues and ques...Claudine,<br />You raise very important issues and questions. History has shown us that humans--for a variety of reasons--have polluted the real essence of past religions to the extent that they are currently in conflict with the norms and expectations of society. Consequently the political system itself is at odds with these so called "religious teachings." Unfortunately, as a result, many insightful people confronted with this conflict end up skeptical and distrusting of any religion, while others with less insight will follow their religious dogma blindly and end up blocking out any sense of reason or normality—extremism and absolute intolerance would ensue then…. <br /><br />This is one of the major challenges currently facing certain sectors of the Egyptian society and several other emerging fundamentalist societies around the world.<br /><br />The hope lies in the educated and enlightened masses, and by all indicators this seems to be on the rise.<br /><br />The answer, therefore, is education and forward-looking orientation, which requires deep understanding of the ills of ‘altered’ past religions…. If you work with computers much, you would know what the meaning of a corrupted file is! It began as a pure and perfect file, then through the actions of ignorant manipulation, viruses and/or interference, it become corrupted and unusable…you would then have to re-install the program with an intact and clean file, and your program would run just fine.Bilohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08060802520953738221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-40286049682335157822006-12-18T09:49:00.000-05:002006-12-18T09:49:00.000-05:00James,
In answer to your question, no...this is no...James,<br />In answer to your question, no...this is not a commonly held view that Baha'is should be listed as sect of Islam. As you well know, Egypt's judiciary (including al-Azhar to which Ali Goma’a belongs)) has declared the Baha'i Faith as an entirely independent religion back in the 1920s. You may refer to <a href="http://bahai-egypt.blogspot.com/2006/07/recognition-of-bahai-faith-egypts-past.html"><strong>this post</strong></a> for details. Also, if the Ministry of Interior wants to force the Baha'is to list themselves as Muslims, this would be untruthful and a punishable violation of the law as stated in their application form for the ID card. Additionally it is unacceptable by the Baha'is as they would be betraying their own belief.Bilohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08060802520953738221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-56293747340549612602006-12-18T07:25:00.000-05:002006-12-18T07:25:00.000-05:00I read in this article of the Middle East Times th...I read in <a href="http://metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20061215-092826-3132r">this article of the Middle East Times</a> that Sheikh Ali Gomaa, Egypt's grand mufti, has said that Baha'is should call themselves Muslims since they believe in all three official religions, as do the Muslims, so presumably he would have Egyptian Baha'is fill in Religion as Islam and Sect as Baha'i. Is this a commonly held view as to how Baha'is should fill in their identity cards? Would the Interior Ministry be happy to see the Baha'i Faith listed as a sect of Islam? Of course, using Sheikh Ali Gomaa's very own logic, you could call Islam a sect of Christianity and Christianity a sect of Judaism, so they may as well only have Judaism as the one official religion of Egypt.<br />My heart goes out to everyone affected by this confusion and the continuing problems that people face as a result of this unresolved injustice.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10074373125824607226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-31948939196996555012006-12-18T06:09:00.000-05:002006-12-18T06:09:00.000-05:00However claudine,
it is an artificial and frail w...However claudine, <br />it is an artificial and frail wind-blown curtain that separates religion from the daily life of the political leader. Whatever beliefs or non-beliefs a human being anywhere has is of course part of their judgement system. You can't separate them in their eventual effect on all issues great and small the person has some influence on. I think we shouldn't be afraid of discussing our own biases in the hopes of reaching a conclusion that could be called just, and beneficial.<br /><br /> The problem, as I see it isn't religion that has influenced civic life in Egypt, it is politics that has infected Islam, the desire for power and influence on the same scale as the political leaders, and there is no screening process for the ignorant are ignorant of their own ignorance, a very fine, self-satisfied place for them to be. <br /><br />By the way, "separation of church and state" was, originally, just a vague ambiguous quote lifted from the writings of Thomas Jefferson, by the US Supreme court, in the 1940's I think the time was, in the process of supporting their opinion with a well-known American. I don't even think they attributed the remark to him in their opinion. <br /><br /> There is no standard of measurement for such an artificiality, except in each one's active imagination.<br /><br />Edo River risingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29145551.post-2263132484066599212006-12-17T21:37:00.000-05:002006-12-17T21:37:00.000-05:00In countries with little or no separation between ...In countries with little or no separation between religion and state the laws oftentimes are based on the religious tenets of the majority of the population. The grave danger of this situation is that if the laws are written in a sacred book dictated by the hand of God, they cannot be changed easily and those in charge of applying the law will hand down blind and harsh punishments hiding behind that fact. Religious intolerance condoned by a government becomes a very cruel form of ostracism and leaves its victims to be nothing more than outlaws without rights in their own country with no recourse to unbiased justice.<br />To a lesser degree, even in countries professing separation of religion and state, it is not unusual for people in authority belonging to a particular faith to hijack the “moral right” of the country and govern and legislate accordingly.<br />Ruling a country in the name of God can indeed be a very dangerous proposition.<br />Surprisingly and sadly enough, the root of religious intolerance - from a government or from individuals -is found in plain sight within the teaching of religion itself. Most holy books contain some form of it. The mention of it makes us squirm… we defend ourselves by citing a lack of understanding of the words, a line taken out of context, a misinterpretation, a poor translation, a word of mouth rather than a prophet’s real preaching, certainly not in “my” book… maybe in “theirs”… etc… and when we fail to convince, we say that all religious writing do contain some form of intolerance. It is unfortunately true and those words do not incite to kindness… It might be as simple as the mention of a difference of status between those who are fortunate enough to believe in the particular tenets and those who are not privy to it, but in some religions it does also escalate all the way to outright command of violence against the outsider who has a different belief. It is puzzling that tenets supposedly handed down from God would divide human beings into categories deeming some better than others (and more worthy of rewards) only due to the fact that they abide by a particular belief, then going on to recommend the shunning or destruction of the unbeliever. Unfortunately, people do not need incentives to judge and to condemn. <br />Considering the basic principles of humility, kindness to others and sacrifice found anywhere else in the holy books one wonders if we are not one more time tested for our ability to use our wonderful gift of free will in deciding which part to abide by….Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com